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“It’s interesting that the old diverse Uptown is purely listed as ‘emerging high-income.’ I’ve heard people say that Uptown and Rogers Park have sort of switched places over the years in terms of crime and poverty. Could this be true?”
– Uptown R commenting on our post about a new report measuring income diversity in Chicago’s 77 official community areas.
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{ 33 comments }
It is sorta based on how the authors of the study classify neighborhoods.
Even if you had a tiny movement of higher income people into a neighborhood and a tiny movement of lower income folks out they would classify it as “emerging high income”. They really don’t deal with the “velocity” of the changes. Plus the data is 7 years old.
The changes in Uptown are apparent to anyone not named “Zekas”. Lower income folks have slowly been moving out and are not being replaced by other lower income folks. Condo conversions, new construction, and renovation to higher cost rentals are apparent all over the neighborhood.
I expect that to continue. However, there is a point where there will simply be very few buildings left that are likely to change. At that point the neighborhood will likely “stabilize” somewhat in terms of change. The CHA and subsidized buildings and highrises are not going to disappear completely.
Anecdotally I can say that the number of hispanics in the neighborhood has dropped dramatically in the last ten years. They largely lived/live in buildings that have undergone renovation or will undergoe renovation. The numbers of lower income whites has dropped where once they were a huge part of the population. The numbers of lower income blacks has dropped, but not as dramatically and is not likely to drop as quickly as the other groups. That would be because of CHA and subsidized units being largely occupied by black folks. The exception being the “senior” buildings which can be relatively diverse.
American Indians once made up a significant part of the population and are now largely gone. Outside of a few social service agencies the remaining “indian” presence in Uptown is tiny. The “Chicago Reporter” did a story on this five years ago. At one point they probably made up 15% or more of the neighborhood.
http://www.chicagoreporter.com/2002/7-2002/indian/indian.htm
As for Rogers Park as I stated in the earlier thread I kinda think the data doesn’t reflect what is happening now. It seems to me that Rogers Park is likely “emerging high income” at this point or possibly “emerging bipolarity”. I don’t think it is “emerging lower income”. I guess we have to wait till 2010 to see the census data, but the changes in Rogers Park in the last 5 years are dramatic.
Many of the types of people who used to move to Uptown and Rogers Park as a “point of entry” to the USA now move directly to lower income or working class suburbs. I seem to recall seeing a report on most Mexican and south of the border immigrants moving directly to the suburbs without a stop in the city.
irishpirate,
The changes in Uptown are apparent to me – have been for the 28 years that I’ve been following the trickle of change each year.
Do I frequently lapse in paying attention to the rate of change in Uptown? Of course I do. There’s never been enough change to pay close attention to it.
I key on the following: the composition of Uptown’s housing stock dictates its future for the fairly long term.
Other neighborhoods have changed dramatically over the period of time that Uptown has remained relatively static, and that will continue. Dynamism is more interesting than drift.
I think the “data is 7 years old” is the relevant phrase here. there’s been a whole lot of change in 7 years, especially on the Nort Seit.
Joe,
you’re simply wrong. Well written and wrong, but wrong. Uptown really didn’t see any significant changes until the early 90’s. Although real estate types have been hyping it since about 1980. It really was a question of one poor group slowly replacing another. The increasing velocity of the changes have really occurred in the last 5-7 years.
Uptown hasn’t remained relatively static. The number of middle income people living here is increasing. The change is sort of hidden in the assumptions people make about a correlation between “race” and wealth. The numbers of whites in Uptown is increasing slowly, but the more significant change was from poor whites to relatively wealthier whites. The “appalachian” whites that were the predominant group into the 80’s are largely dead or gone. Such wonderful “youth organizations” as the “Kenmore Boys” are nothing but a distant memory.
One thing I think we would agree on is that the composition of a certain portion of the housing stock will dictate part of the future. Parts of the “Sheridan Park” section of Uptown are certainly held back by the large numbers of CHA owned or subsidized units. Drug dealing and gang shootings are not a positive. The area around Lawrence and Winthrop certainly suffers because of the highrise subsidized building nearby.
That being said there is SIGNIFICANT improvement in nearly every section of Uptown. It won’t become Lincoln Park north, but it is becoming more like Lakeview every year. Actually the area of Uptown south of Montrose is generally nicer than parts of east Lakeview. It is not as nice as parts of west Lakeview, which in my opinion are some of the best blocks in the city.
Broadway north of 4700 is becoming quite the restaurant and entertainment destination. Even Wilson west of Broadway has seen some impressive improvement. The restaurants and nightlife south of Montrose have improved dramatically in the past 5 years. Of course when there was little there before a few restaurants make all the difference.
Change is generally slow. People believe Lincoln Park became “Lincoln Park” overnight. It took decades. I remember luxury homes being built a block from a gang war zone in the 70’s and 80’s.
I guess I see the glass as half full and rising. You don’t see the glass. You may see the “ring” the glass left on the table for lack of a coaster though.
My own guess is that over the next 10 years Uptown will see a dramatic rise in the number of higher income folks living here. Along with that the retail and restaurants will likely continue to improve.
Beyond that though your point about “housing stock” will dramatically slow or prevent any more change.
In 2010 we can discuss this after the census comes out. That is assuming Jesus doesn’t decide he needs another angel and we are both still alive and breathing.
Oh well
irishpirate,
Not fair of you to mock Jesus’ penchant for angels in the front yard. I thought you said the Hispanic population was dropping?
irishpirate,
I think I need to expand on my view of how the housing stock dictates Uptown’s demography and destiny. And none of my thinking on this subject involves race or ethnicity in any way.
East of Clark Street, 36% of the housing stock has 2 or fewer rooms; 57% has 3 or fewer; nearly 75% has four or fewer rooms.
65% of all units are in buildings with 20 or more units; 75% in buildings with 10 or more units. Less than 1 in 20 units is in a building with 2 or fewer units.
The units themselves were, by and large, designed to serve an entry-level transient population or a population seeking a terminal residence.
These numbers change only at a glacial pace, if at all, since the economics will rarely work for unit combinations in a place like Uptown and there isn’t enough vacant land to impact the overall mix.
A community whose very physical composition does not serve middle- and upper-income populations well will not attract middle- and upper-income populations to any large extent. It can’t. It won’t. Period. The 2010 Census won’t show much change in these numbers. Give it up.
P.S. Rogers Park looks even worse when examined through this prism.
“Broadway north of 4700 is becoming quite the restaurant and entertainment destination.” Because of Crew and Marigold? Hardly a destination….
Hey,
I was mocking you and me. Not Jesus.
Now a guy down the block from me has a statue of Jesus’ mom in front of his place. He is white and I assume Catholic. He is also larger than me and likes to drink so I won’t mock him for it. Or I might end up as a “martyr” for my perverse sense of humor.
That whole “Holy Statue” thing seems to be a Catholic “thang” and not necessarily Hispanic. Go to white sections of the southwest side and you will see those statues all over the place. Hell I had those in my house growing up, but my neighborhood was tough. We kept them inside so they wouldn’t get stolen. Our XMAS lights got stolen one year. Ah, memories!
Hey Matt,
it is more than Crew and Marigold. Uptown Lounge, FatCat, Green Mill, the Annoyance Theater, and some others I am forgetting about. Riveria. Aragon. Agami. Wilde Pug.
Plus there is some major renovation ongoing at two of the buildings on Broadway right there. Likely to be retail and restaurants.
Check out this site.
http://uptownupdate.blogspot.com/
They do a nice job covering Uptown. Or as I said the “good bad and ugly” of Uptown. There is plenty of all three.
Much of the two to four-room housing stock in uptown was converted to this after WWII from larger units, and could be easily converted back. I agree with the IrishPirate that the high-rise buildings aren’t going anywhere soon, however. But nearly every six-flat or three-flat has been converted to condos in the vicinity in Buena Park and Sheridan Park–and the remaining rentals in Buena Park are starting to attract more affluent renters. I can now count the number of “problem buildings” in Buena Park on one hand, and this is even a change from two years ago. My biggest problem with the neighborhood is the transient population who drink and urinate in public–but they largely keep to Broadway (near the liquor stores) in Buena Park. I’ve had fewer crime problems here than anywhere else I’ve lived in Chicago, and I don’t see this changing any time soon. The biggest negative is lack of commercial activity, but I can be in Lakeview in less than ten minutes if I want to.
To clarify, I meant to say that the drunk transients keep to Broadway when they’re in Buena Park–and not that Buena Park is where most of them congregate… It’s clear that most of the homeless population sticks to the areas north of Montrose.
The real anchor that will keep Uptown down for longer than new residents would like is what Irishpirate referenced earlier – the large amount of affordable/subsidized and public housing. That ain’t gonna go away anytime soon. And yes, Sheridan Park has a lot of it, which is a bit of a shame. A friend recently took a good hard look at Sheridan Park when shopping for a condo, but ended up going with Logan Square/West Bucktown for precisely that reason. Now major swaths of that northwest neighborhood are still far worse than Sheridan Park, but my friend saw much more of an upside. What’s your appreciation potential in a $240k 2 bedroom when it’s next to subsidized housing?
UptownR
Quantify “much of” for us, please. I believe you’re simply making this up, and have no factual basis for it.
Over half of Uptown’s housing stock was built after WWII – and therefore can’t fall into the group of units you’re talking about.
How do you get “much of” out of significantly less than half?
Buena Park and Sheridan Park together account for very little of Uptown’s housing stock, and they’re not representative of the rest of Uptown.
The Developers sure think something is happening in Uptown worth paying attention to. Just check out all of the local developments over the last few years:
Isn’t how this post started? Remember Joe, you were surprised by the $1.1 Million price tag on a single-family.
Actually the “much of”comment sounds like it may have come from the Encyclopedia of Chicago. I am too lazy to look. I have read that before.
As for half the housing stock being built after World War Two correct and incorrect. In terms of number of buildings it is incorrect. In terms of number of units correct. Those big lakefront and off lakefront highrises make up a relatively small number of buildings and a large number of the “units”. Many of those units are condos. Just one building like “Imperial Towers” probably has over 800 units. Takes a whole lot of 6 flats to counter those numbers.
We have to remember that in many ways Uptown is a very diverse neighborhood in terms of housing stock. The highrise condos predominate right along the lakefront. Then there is the small but appealing portion of the Buena Park area with the mansions. Now away from the lakefront most of the buildings are condos at this point, but the non condo buildings tend to be larger. Some of those buildings are CHA or subsidized and have a disproportionate effect on the neighborhood.
Then the NW corner of Uptown is largely single family or smaller apartment buildings and feels more like Andersonville than Uptown.
Throw in a plethora of social service agencies and their clients and it makes for a diverse area. The CHA buildings near Winthrop and Lawrence are likely the biggest challenge the neighborhood faces and are not going anywhere anytime soon. With hard headed management and good tenant screening the problems some of the tenants create could be reduced.
When the CHA first opened many buildings in the 1940’s and 1950’s they were desirable places for people to live. That could happen again with the political will.
My own educated guess is that the number of higher income people will continue to increase as more condo conversions and rental renovation continue. At some point though there simply won’t be much left to convert or renovate. That is why working to get decent management in the subsidized buildings is important for both the neighborhood and the people who live in those buildings. The violence and drug dealing in this neighborhood are concentrated around those buildings and a subset of their tenants. It is not a coincidence. It is also the decent tenants who live there that suffer the most.
Now it is time for someone to post here and tell me I am a racist or a “reagannut” or some other silly ass thing.
Now the worst looking area of Uptown is centered on the Broadway/Sheridan/Wilson area. At this point it is being “squeezed” from the north, south, and west and is slowly improving. In ten years it will be slowly improving. I suspect in twenty it will have changed fairly dramatically.
Time will tell. Some of us will be around to see it. Others will have been cremated in Graceland and their ashes spread outside a water intake crib. Don’t ask.
Hey,
I missed this comment:
If I were a conspiracy theorist I would say you snuck back in and placed it there.
“A community whose very physical composition does not serve middle- and upper-income populations well will not attract middle- and upper-income populations to any large extent. It can’t. It won’t. Period. The 2010 Census won’t show much change in these numbers. Give it up.”
The 2010 census will show a change in the numbers. Many of those buildings you refer to have already been renovated. I can think of 6 larger corridor or courtyard buildings just on Kenmore from 4000-4400 north that met the criteria you mentioned that are now condos or more commonly relatively more expensive rentals. They have all been renovated in the last 5 years or so. That is a change of a few hundred units on one section of street. Similar things are happening throughout the neighborhood. You can ignore it or deny it, but that don’t change da facts. It almost seems Uptown and Rogers Park are your version of Dubya’s Iraq. You see what you want to. Just don’t shoot me like Cheney would.
The courtyard buildings seem to be more likely to go condo and the corridor buildings tend to becoming apartments for the post college crowd who live alone or with one other person. Whether you want to admit it or not it is happening. Even some of the larger buildings with smaller units have gone condo. Give it up.
What is happening is that the buildings with 40 or 50 units or less are largely becoming market rate rentals for the college and post college crowd. The rental market is strong at the moment.
Now for larger buildings I would largely agree with you. The exception being that the “for profit” SRO type buildings are disappearing. The rental highrises which tend to be subsidized are changing verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry slowly.
Although, even there some of the buildings which had HUD contracts with 20-25 year lengths have changed. The ownership used some “loophole” not to renew. The alderman had quite the fit a few years back over a building or two on Buena and maybe one on Clarendon.
You’re looking at old data and making old assumptions based on old economics. Which is ok because you are old. If you buy a building that hasn’t seen any major work since 1970 turning it into condos or moderately priced rentals makes economic sense.
That is something I have direct experience in doing. I’ve owned rental property in the past.
I’ve found that as much as it pains me to spend a buck, I am always better off spending the cash and getting higher rents and marginally less annoying tenants than “milking” a property and doing nothing. It is a lesson I learned and relearned more than a few times. As I told one of my relatives who is “more frugal” than me “buy the damn oversized refrigerator it will pay for itself by cutting vacancies.” I lost quite a few months rent by forgetting that type of lesson at various times.
As for your comments on Rogers Park methinks you are wrong. I have no horse in that race as I own nothing and have never owned anything in that area. The number of condo conversions in that neighborhood, at least up to last year, was phenomenal. I know you will say that it is investors buying and that Rogers Park hasn’t changed, but you are wrong.
One of my friends was part of a group that bought a large number of buildings there, gutted them, and sold them as condos. I think the buildings were largely courtyards and filled with smallish units. I looked at a few of them. He wanted me to invest. I don’t invest with anyone who doesn’t have the same last name as me. Even then they have to be a sibling. The “drama” of “investment” groups is too much for me. Anyway my siblings aren’t afraid to unclog a tub.
They changed the floorplans, reduced the number of units, and sold them fairly quickly. Almost everyone who bought was a live in owner. That information I got second hand, but he is not a bullshiter. You basically stated that it is economically unfeasible to do that. Well it was done and is still being done. Although probably at a slower pace in 2007 than in 2003-2006.
Oh well. In 2010 either you or I will have to “give it up”. The joy Uptown bashing brings you may mean we will have to continue till the 2020 census. I figure this debate will add a few years to your life expectancy. Your kids may or may not be thankful for that.
Goodnight. I am taping Charlie Rose and it is time to listen to a discussion of the CIA. Not as interesting as this perhaps but probably more important.
Chad,
Read it again – wasn’t me surprised by the $1.1M price tag.
Nor am I surprised by the large number of broken links in the list of developments. Quite a few of these developments, it should be noted, are vacant retail space. That’s a plus for Uptown?
irishpirate,
Check back in with me when the median household income in Uptown gets anywhere near the citywide median.
Oh, wait – I don’t expect to live that long.
Well Joe when you croak at least Barry Pearce will write a nice obituary for you. Hopefully, he won’t be completely honest. Although, it would be more amusing.
I do see your point on the median income of Uptown. It will rise dramatically in the next census, but given the number of subsidized units and fixed income seniors probably not near the city median. That is one number I haven’t really looked at so I will not give the definitive pirate opinion. I’d want to see the per capita income and the breakdown by age etc. Again 2010 will be interesting.
As for Chad’s comment that million dollar plus home is in the extreme northwest corner of Uptown. There are no other million dollar plus condos or homes being built in other areas of the ward. At least to my knowledge. Now there are other million dollar homes, but they tend to be in the mansion district in Buena Park or right near the lakefront. That really doesn’t say much about the overall neighborhood.
Joe’s comment about vacant retail is valid. There is a tremendous amount of it particularly along Broadway. That is not a problem limited to Uptown although it appears to be more severe here.
As for the comments about broken links. Many of those developments sold out years ago. No reason to have a link up.
irishpirate,
You’re looking forward to my obituary? I didn’t know that questioning Uptown was a capital offense.
I’m guessing you’ll have the guy who does your obit pirate these lines from Auden’s masterpiece of double-entendre and back-handed compliments on Yeats:
Let the Irish vessel lie
Emptied of its poetry.
Time that is intolerant
Of the brave and innocent,
And indifferent in a week
To a beautiful physique,
Worships language and forgives
Everyone by whom it lives ,,,
I’m a patient man Joe. I’m in no hurry to read your obituary. As I tell my “favorite Uncle Mike” , who is my ONLY Uncle MIKE, I am looking forward to “watering” his grave, but I’m in no hurry. My dad liked that line. He planned to “water” many graves. After he died I like to say there was a line in front of his grave of men waiting to “water” his.
You are entitled to your opinions about Uptown. You are not entitled to your own facts. You made some valid points about housing stock. I just think you are missing some changes going on and overemphasizing the “stability” of the housing stock. Quite a bit of the “immutable” housing you referenced is in fact being renovated. Which means quite a bit more likely isn’t. After the next census we will get a better idea of what is really happening. As I said Uptown isn’t going to become Lincoln Park, but some dramatic change is afoot. I like to use the word “afoot” because it is pretentious and literary and is a good opening for coming comments.
When I disagree with you on a subject it is generally a question of “degree” rather than flat out disagreement. We’re both pro development, both cynical about the political process in Chicago, and both understand how tenuous the economic and housing revitalization of Chicago really is.
As for Auden I don’t recall ever seeing that poem.
Here is a pretentious literary critic who finds Auden tiresome.
http://www.exile.ru/2007-February-08/a_is_for_auden_alas.html
“Auden was perfectly positioned to claim Yeats’ corpse, thanks to two key advantages: his superb literary connections (he was one of the poetry world’s all-time leading schmoozers), and the fact that he had no taste. That meant that he didn’t mind gorging on carrion, didn’t recognize the sleaziness of the whole enterprise, and so he was all over Yeats’ corpse before it was cold. He had the “Irish guest” wallpapered with his ode, “In Memory of W. B. Yeats,” before the competition could get off a haiku. And his entry in the funeral games was exactly the sort that wins public acclaim: huge, clunky and soppy, full of topical references and a vast self-pity in which Yeats’ dead body becomes the occasion for a big group weep over the state of Europe.”
Me, I kinda like Auden’s poem. But there are lots of dead white male writers that I like. How politically incorrect of me.
irishpirate,
I always guessed you were a Kipling guy.
Very good guess.
My favorite Kipling line:
“When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains, and the women come out to cut up what remains, jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains and go to your gawd like a soldier”.
Dammit now I am reading more Kipling quotes.
Here is an appropriate one:
“I have struck a city – a real city – and they call it Chicago… I urgently desire never to see it again. It is inhabited by savages.”
Rudyard Kipling
Quote: “Nor am I surprised by the large number of broken links in the list of developments. Quite a few of these developments, it should be noted, are vacant retail space.”
Many of the links are from projects which are a few years old. The projects have been built, sold and no longer need marketing. As a web industry guy yourself, you should know that concept.
You as much as anyone should also be familiar with Chicago’s development trends. Not that you don’t already know this, but the housing gets re-established first, then the retail about 4-5 years later.
Uptown may take a bit longer because of the incredible number of subsidized housing units crowded into the 46th Ward. In spite of that, retail development seems to be happening at a lightning fast pace lately – especially on the south end of the 48th Ward, the east side of the 47th Ward and the North side of the 44th Ward. Even the 46th Ward has successful new retail, including Starbucks. Face it, Joe, it’s a matter of time.
Curious that you are so adamant in your position that Uptown is a failure and everyone should just give up any hope whatsoever. Methinks thou does protest wayyyyyyyy too much. Not sure why exactly, but the Uptown you describe is not what seems to be happening. Wishful thinking on your part maybe?
Chad,
You offered the link as evidence of what’s been happening “over the last few years.” The broken links make it difficult to tell what’s happened and over how long a time frame. And, it purported to be a list of developments; I question whether a store for rent is a development.
Uptown has been taking “a bit longer” – to use your phrase – for 30 years now.
I’m not contending that Uptown’s not changing or that it’s a failure. I’m simply cautioning people about the pace of change and the extent to which fundamental change is even possible.
Why are you so adamant about distorting my position, which has been expressed many, many times on this site? What is it about realism that causes Uptowners so much discomfort?
It’s all a matter of perspective I guess. One person’s “realism” may not be the same reality that the rest of us live in. Anyway your “cautioning” is duly noted.
Broken web links or not, the pace of change in Uptown continues to be dramatic. Cabs wouldn’t drop people off in Uptown just 6-8 years ago because of the violent crime. Now cabs are sometimes 2-3 deep at Uptown restaurants and clubs. Maybe that’s not the drama you were looking for, but that’s reality. Maybe it took 30 years to get to this point but change is happening very quickly now.
You also choose to point to “vacant storefronts” as if to say that they will always be vacant. Vacant storefronts are the rule not the exception in Chicago’s changing neighborhoods. Andersonville was a strip of vacant storefronts just five years ago. Look at it now. Lakeview was the same. North Center, same. Lincoln Square, same. Bryn Mawr, same. Yadda, yadda, yadda.
The Uptown part of Broadway just north of Lawrence in the 48th Ward was a strip of vacant storefronts only a few years ago. Even with the Uptown Theatre shuttered there is dramatic revitalization of that strip.
Clark Street in the 47th Ward part of Uptown is developing with new retail at a fevered pace right now.
Broadway is developing new retail quickly just south of the 46th Ward.
I have no intention on distorting your position on the pace of change in Uptown. On the contrary, I am simply offering an observation about your postings. It really does seem like you have an agenda that you’re supporting.
For seasoned Uptowners agendas to say Uptown will never be anthing more than it is now are not a new thing either.
As IrishPirate said in an earlier post, conspiracy theorists would have a field day on the changes that postings on this thread have gone through, but as the French say, “Que so what so what.”
Chad,
You keep trying to put words in my mouth. I said what I said about vacant storefronts – not “as if to say” something else. If I wanted to say something else, I would say it.
And on other threads people are berating me for being a rah-rah cheerleader for real estate.
One point that needs to be made is that many of the “smaller” housing units that Joe Zekas references are actually in highrises within two blocks of Marine Drive. Just “Imperial Towers” has roughly 850 units the vast majority of which are one bedrooms or smaller. My WAG, wild assed guess, is that just between Irving and Montrose, there are over 2000 units that fit that description. They are certainly not luxury housing, but they are mostly middle income housing.
The image one may get when reading Joe Zekas’ point is of thousands of tiny units in walk up buildings throughout the neighborhood filled with poor folks. The phrase “wretched refuse” comes to mind since Uptown has a history of being an entry point for immigrants. Both foreign immigrants and internal immigrants like southern blacks and appalachian whites made Uptown a stopping point in their journey to Chicago. There are certainly buildings in Uptown that still fit that image, but I don’t think the majority of the smaller units are in such buildings.
That being said there are at least two highrise buildings, with hundreds of units, that are a serious problem. The building on Winthrop just north of Lawrence and the building just west of Weiss hospital on Leland(I think). Realistically both those buildings are not going to disappear anytime soon. I suspect the vast majority of “serious” crime in the ward is linked to those two buildings and the scattered site CHA housing that is prevalent in parts of “Sheridan Park”.
It seems that when there are gang/drug related murders in the ward the victims and the shooters tend to be associated with those buildings.
Uptown is changing and has been changing dramatically since about 1992. Joe Zekas mentions 30 years, but it is really closer to 15 since any significant change started. Prior to that it was mostly real estate “puffery” like getting “Sheridan Park” designated a historic district.
My contention is that Uptown was not heading “UP” until about 1992-1995. If you picture the letter “U” sometime around that point the trends started moving from the bottom of the “U” to the right of the “U”. The changes in the census data from 1990 to 2000 show change clearly happening.
In 2010 I think we will see that the pace of change picked up. Retail has clearly picked up particularly in those parts of the neighborhood that don’t have an alderman who graduated from the University of Wisconsin at Madison.
A good friend of mine once said that “We’re all a lot more transparent than we choose to believe that we are.” I’ll let other readers make up their own minds about what each of us is trying to say. (or not to say)
Meanwhile I’m off to one of Uptown’s many new restaurants for dinner.
Cheers
You’re dissing my alma mater, pirate.
The People’s Republic of Madison was a great place to go to school, especially in the late 60s and early 70s.
Joe,
that’s why I said it.
regarding the pace of change, I highly recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Street-Signs-Chicago-Neighborhood-Illusions/dp/0914091050
It’s from 1982 and talks about gentrification in Chicago, focusing largely on Pilsen and Roger’s Park – much of what is said could have been written yesterday. But I suspect you’d all enjoy the stories of how beatniks looking for cheap rent and a hip atmosphere often “hip” themselves out of a neighborhood once the gentry come back and buy up the empty warehouses/lofts, etc.
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